Curse

Kabale · Mar 28, 2006, 10:15 AM // 10:15

I'd like something similar to what allience said.

I think it's obvious that there is an audience for both unorganized and organized play, that certainly is the case in our guild and most guilds we've been speaking to.

What I could see (or, would like to see) happening is something like this:

Let's say we have two Alliances, one is Kurzicks and one Luxon, each consisting of 3 organized guilds, ready to play some Alliance battles. All of them are on Ventrilo/TS, got specific skillbars, know what each player is doing, etc, etc...

They both 'Enter Mission', but instead of going against random teams, get placed against each other, similar to how GvG matchups are made (maybe depending on the accumulated Alliance Standing of the 3 guilds, for example). This ensures that there would be a similar level of skill in both teams and the battle will be as fair as possible.

These battles, in order for them to be worthwhile for the guilds to actually participate in and invent specific builds for, should have a larger effect on the battle lines than the Random battles, and maybe something like a popup message similar to the HoH message should appear saying "The 'xxx' Alliance has broken through the lines at 'xxx' location! Kurzicks/Luxons are pushing the lines forward!". (Being a PvP person, this has always been a nice reward, having some kind of global recognition, but I am all for having it be toggle-able, as I'm sure it may be annoying for those that don't care). This message would also alert other Guilds/Alliances that they may need to form a group to counter the push, etc...

Unlike the above poster though, I do think the organized teams should still get the same faction awards though, no reason to exclude them from pve completely..

luilui · Mar 28, 2006, 10:52 AM // 10:52

i think 12v12 battle will only make sense if u can choose ur team. This 12v12 has huge tactical potential if u can go in with 2 other random teams, it would be such a waste (for players and anet), there will be no communication in tactics, no coordiation in the team builds.....etc. Everyone who know how to pvp know it's the WHOLE team build that matters not an individual player's build and not so much to 4 players' build. If u can only go into a match without knowing what skills in the team, it's not making the game enough, it's just plain stupid, i cant imagine a real good players will do it (can u imagine how annoyed a r12 player will be if he's put in the same team with a r0), it's just as stupid as giving each player a random skillbar.

I also think 12v12 is the way to go. With the new profs and new skills, u might need a 12 men team otherwise ur team wont have enough skills to counter all possible builds. For exmaple a good HA team probably need skills like windborne for relic map, shield up for ranger spike, spirits for holding, some interrupts to stop other team from capping..... And with the new skills & professions god know how many new builds there will be, for example, u might need unnatural signet for counting the future possible spirit spamming team. It might turn out that u can never fit all the necessary skills in a 8 men team, and HA will become a lottery place where u can only win if u r lucky (lucky not to face a build that u dont have the counter for).

Ensign · Mar 28, 2006, 11:05 AM // 11:05

Changing Alliance battles from the brilliant, semi-organized chaos of 3 random teams of 4 chosen players, into hand-picked 12 man teams, would, unequivocally, be the worst decision they have ever made about the direction of Guild Wars. In its current incarnation, 12v12 is the best, healthiest, and most inspired format the game has ever had. It has more widespread appeal than anything they've ever made, creating an everyman's format that's still deep enough to keep a seasoned veteran coming back. The semi-random group selection is brilliant, allowing you to play with your friends without the organizational nightmares and raw competitiveness that comes with a completely organized format. But even more remarkable is how well that selection process works for 12v12. It's a gametype where you can organize with the team, or run off and do your own thing without ever talking to anyone on your team, and either way you're still contributing.

I have to say that I was a bit concerned about straight 12v12 when I first heard about it, but the way it ended up being implemented was better than anyone could have hoped. Whoever thought up the concept should be due for a big raise. Anyone who suggests changing it significantly should be fired with extreme prejudice.

The *only* change that I would like to see to the format is access. Instead of getting both pairs of NPCs in your guild hall to start an alliance battle, only the pair associated with the faction your guild is currently allied with should be accessable. That way you couldn't even enter the forming districts for the opposite faction, eliminating moles that join a battle just to throw it to the faction that they're actually on. If you're in a Luxon alliance with Luxon standing then you fight for the Luxons in alliance battles, period.

I'm one of the most competitive players in this game, fanatically so, and I'm here to tell you that even people who regularly play GvG on the highest level love 12v12. It's just that good.

Peace,
-CxE

Kabale · Mar 28, 2006, 11:11 AM // 11:11

If they were to keep it in it's current state, they would need to address the possibility of two groups of 4 from the same guild joining at the same time.

Ensign, you do know that it is more or less guaranteed, judging by the interviews, that these battles will be organized?

Philorth de Vaird · Mar 28, 2006, 11:23 AM // 11:23

I'd like to see it random and having organised 3 team of 4 = 12 players from a guild alliance or not.

I do think though that alliances will come into play somehow after release as i'm sure they must have uses in PvP as well as PvE mission and co-op area's.

All in all though really enjoyed the matches I played in Alliance battles over the weekend.

Studio Ghibli · Mar 28, 2006, 12:13 PM // 12:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by allience

i've played the 12 vs 12 only 3 times. i did not like it because it's like a huge random arena. ppl were just randomly pinging the compass, running off like idiots everywere. even with 4 ppl from your own party, it's still a mess.
(

Your problem is right there.

You only played it three times.

You played a new PVP map only three times.

When I started playing domination that morning, everything was shit. Hell, I was shit.

By the end of that first day though, things were starting to rock. You didn't have to say anything about positioning. People would immediately break off into 4 - 4 - 4. People understood the significance of certain control points.

People understood that minion masters kicked serious ass.

Ensign continues to take the words out of my mouth as to why the current incarnation of 12v12 is -the best thing- to ever find its way into Guild Wars.

luilui · Mar 28, 2006, 12:19 PM // 12:19

There are the hardcore players and the causal player and then there are the noobs. i'd say hardcore players are those skillful one, and causal are those not so skilled but at least know what's going on. Randomly team with causal or hardcore players might not be too bad, but it's annoying as hell to be in a team with noob (my own personal experience is having a wammo holding the orb for the whole time and not dropping when players are dead). That's what i hate the most about random teaming.

unorganised 12v12 might appeared to be fun at the beginning, but it might turn horrible soon if u keep on losing for stupid reasons. or u might be sick of those immature players who are everywhere.

Many ppl complainting about cant getting a team in HA for example, but team work is what GW is about, and u need a team (a regular team, not 7 ppl in party window) to have proper team work. This is a multiplayer game so plz go out and make some GW friends and team up. Doing only what u want is not going to get u anywhere (at least in the pvp aspect). If u want to solo then plz go pve or try oblivion.

I'll be very disappointed if u can only make semi-random team for 12v12 battle. That'll be like filling HoH(by that i mean the highest level of battlefield) with noobs.... >_<!

Numa Pompilius · Mar 28, 2006, 12:26 PM // 12:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The *only* change that I would like to see to the format is access. Instead of getting both pairs of NPCs in your guild hall to start an alliance battle, only the pair associated with the faction your guild is currently allied with should be accessable. --- If you're in a Luxon alliance with Luxon standing then you fight for the Luxons in alliance battles, period.

<APPLAUSE!> Hear, hear!

TheYellowKid · Mar 28, 2006, 12:42 PM // 12:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by luilui

There are the hardcore players and the causal player and then there are the noobs. i'd say hardcore players are those skillful one, and causal are those not so skilled but at least know what's going on. Randomly team with causal or hardcore players might not be too bad, but it's annoying as hell to be in a team with noob (my own personal experience is having a wammo holding the orb for the whole time and not dropping when players are dead). That's what i hate the most about random teaming.

unorganised 12v12 might appeared to be fun at the beginning, but it might turn horrible soon if u keep on losing for stupid reasons. or u might be sick of those immature players who are everywhere.

Many ppl complainting about cant getting a team in HA for example, but team work is what GW is about, and u need a team (a regular team, not 7 ppl in party window) to have proper team work. This is a multiplayer game so plz go out and make some GW friends and team up. Doing only what u want is not going to get u anywhere (at least in the pvp aspect). If u want to solo then plz go pve or try oblivion.

I'll be very disappointed if u can only make semi-random team for 12v12 battle. That'll be like filling HoH(by that i mean the highest level of battlefield) with noobs.... >_<!

yea but many online FPS are team games but u still play them with random people and its all good.. if u've got a noob school him everyones a noob at some point, if u had said to him to drop the orb to rez people im sure he would have listened and if not that only one player down ive been on 11 v 12 teams and won (and personally if u didnt school him in my eyes, no offence but a bigger noob), dont see the problem.. u can team up with people that uve never met before quite easily and do well, which is plainly evident in the matches on sat and sun of the preview event once people got used to the new dynamics..

atm the allaince battles we had in the FPE would for me be the biggest selling point considering i got to the luxon place done 2 missions then jus played alliance battles and managed to earn all 10K faction points doin that, i got strategy's planned jus for alliance battles, skills i wanna try etc etc.

in general people dont wanna wait to form a party for ages or even at all in some cases, have to fit a certain build, play a certain way, play with one set of people, be a certain char and 2ndary etc etc, all these things were eliminated in the alliance battles in one fell swoop and for me if it changed from the way it was my anticipation for factions would go down greatly..

Studio Ghibli · Mar 28, 2006, 12:59 PM // 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by luilui

There are the hardcore players and the causal player and then there are the noobs. i'd say hardcore players are those skillful one, and causal are those not so skilled but at least know what's going on. Randomly team with causal or hardcore players might not be too bad, but it's annoying as hell to be in a team with noob (my own personal experience is having a wammo holding the orb for the whole time and not dropping when players are dead). That's what i hate the most about random teaming.

You will always have noobs, Luilui. People need to learn.

Quote:

Originally Posted by luilui

unorganised 12v12 might appeared to be fun at the beginning, but it might turn horrible soon if u keep on losing for stupid reasons. or u might be sick of those immature players who are everywhere.

No, it was actually fun the whole way through the event. At first, people were pretty unsure of what they were doing--and so was I. After a few run-throughs though, everyone began to understand what the 12v12 was all about, and how to manage the scenario. By the end of the Factions event, not only were teams becoming really competitive in 12v12, my guild was planning what would be the best four-man squad to use.

Quote:

Originally Posted by luilui

Many ppl complainting about cant getting a team in HA for example, but team work is what GW is about, and u need a team (a regular team, not 7 ppl in party window) to have proper team work. This is a multiplayer game so plz go out and make some GW friends and team up. Doing only what u want is not going to get u anywhere (at least in the pvp aspect). If u want to solo then plz go pve or try oblivion.

I'm not sure how this criticism reflects Alliances. Last I checked, I was on a team of eleven other people. And while we all may not know each other, that in and of itself does not suggest a lack of a team. Rather, it says, "Hey, none of us know each other--but if we want to win, let's work together."

I'm not sure what "doing only what u want" reflects Alliances, either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by luilui

I'll be very disappointed if u can only make semi-random team for 12v12 battle. That'll be like filling HoH(by that i mean the highest level of battlefield) with noobs.... >_<!

Well, see, in reverse, that's why I don't want to see 12v12 made team-based. Suddenly, if you want to be able to play, you have to be the best of the best, or at least EXTREMELY COMPETITIVE. There's no room for the casual PVPer. In its current incarnation, 12v12 is practically open to everyone, because everyone knows there's not going to be one build dominating it, one guild dominating it, one alliance dominating it.

See Ensign's posts for the best reasons.

luilui · Mar 28, 2006, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Anet can just make 2 types of alliance battles one for unorganised, one for organised. Then we can keep the causal players happy as well as the serious players. There is no reason (and not fair??) to give one up for the other.

For me it'll be a real pity if alliance battle cant be played at the highest tactical level (just observing will be enjoyable enough for me). Especially with the addition of the new spirits and teleportation. Maybe one day some1 can invent a way of holding 3 altars with only 2 teleporting ritualists lol.

tafy69 · Mar 28, 2006, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Im sure there will be another place that will allow organized 12v12, we dont know what factions offers yet.

frickett · Mar 28, 2006, 02:18 PM // 14:18

/not signed

I like random groups, I hate standing around for 45 minutes saying, Hey pick me! I like the random groups cause i can just jump in.

Tuoba Hturt Eht · Mar 28, 2006, 02:19 PM // 14:19

You guys always talk like as if the team is not
"selected careful before entering the battle",

then it will be "unorganized", and then you guys claim that you guys will
"not have fun, because its unorganized".

Did you all notice that, the "get ready time" for the Alliance Battles is more than a minute?

During that one minute time, surely some form of tactics can be discussed, easiest one being the spilting up of the team, so that different groups charge out to different strategic points, in order to capture and secure them.

Granted, this "method" of "quick discussion and implementation of tactics" will be workable if everyone on the team is a dedicated player that will not rage quit, and has good experience in 12 vs 12 Alliance Battles, as well as adequate pvp experience.

Anway,
/not signed again

Alliance Battles should stay random.
(If you want, you can always form your own team of 4 ubar players, hence become an ubar shock team that will contribute much to your team of 12 players)

jules · Mar 28, 2006, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Changing Alliance battles from the brilliant, semi-organized chaos of 3 random teams of 4 chosen players, into hand-picked 12 man teams, would, unequivocally, be the worst decision they have ever made about the direction of Guild Wars. In its current incarnation, 12v12 is the best, healthiest, and most inspired format the game has ever had. It has more widespread appeal than anything they've ever made, creating an everyman's format that's still deep enough to keep a seasoned veteran coming back. The semi-random group selection is brilliant, allowing you to play with your friends without the organizational nightmares and raw competitiveness that comes with a completely organized format. But even more remarkable is how well that selection process works for 12v12. It's a gametype where you can organize with the team, or run off and do your own thing without ever talking to anyone on your team, and either way you're still contributing.

I have to say that I was a bit concerned about straight 12v12 when I first heard about it, but the way it ended up being implemented was better than anyone could have hoped. Whoever thought up the concept should be due for a big raise. Anyone who suggests changing it significantly should be fired with extreme prejudice.

That was very well put and sums up what I think about this format. It's got the same sort of appeal that FPS team deathmatch does, and even more to boot. I really hope it stays random.

twicky_kid · Mar 28, 2006, 10:40 PM // 22:40

This is going to suffer the same fate as the CA arenas. 4-5 months ago there were 15-20 dist at one time on the american server. That number has shrank to about 3 at the most. Less people are doing CA because its completely random and your success depends on absolute strangers with no corination in builds.

Yes 12vs12 is fun at first. 5-6th time through its more....eh ok I'll go do something else now because it will never change. Just like CA never changes and less people play it.

Keeping it random is putting an expiration date on the arena. Eventually people will move on to something else they have more control over.

The rewards for this arena is the one of the biggest problems for me. The only reward is taking over a town which ONLY PvE can benifit from. Pvp players are left with an increasingly boring format with no rewards. I don't see this lasting if it stays random. This arena was made to keep those pve players from leaving the game due to limited content. With the pve environment changing constantly there will be more of an incentive to stay and play. I think the real changes to the game are going to happen with c3. So far factions is a pve chapter IMO. Only benifit a pvp player gets is new professions (which are only good in 12vs12) and skills for core classes. After playing the beta I am buying Factions only for the skills. I'm going right now to reduce my pre-order from the collectors edition to the standard. I might cancel it all together and get an account at a cheaper price later. Anet has to play both fronts. You can please one side but you could be leaving the other side in the dust. Which is exactly what c2 is doing to hardcore pvp players right now. I play the game to be competative not endless grinding.

Alliances are not cordinated at all. You can have up to 1000 players in 1 alliance. From those players that are doing 12v12 at one time will be entered into the match with you. Its still going to be random but you are not going to have a prime pick if there are a couple 100 people in your alliance. This does make a more narrow focus on who is invited into your games compared to being purely random.

Ensign · Mar 28, 2006, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kabale

Ensign, you do know that it is more or less guaranteed, judging by the interviews, that these battles will be organized?

That's a pity. I guess they just wanted to mess with people this weekend and tease them with a PvP format that's actually accessible to a wider audience. It's exactly what this game needs right now on the PvP front.

Quote:

Originally Posted by luilui

I'll be very disappointed if u can only make semi-random team for 12v12 battle. That'll be like filling HoH(by that i mean the highest level of battlefield) with noobs.... >_<!

I think you misunderstand the current gaming environment. HA is not the highest level of competition. HA is a slum. It's pretty widely recognized as a sea of gimmick builds in a format that bluntly doesn't matter.

As soon as 12v12 becomes organized it becomes orders of magnitude more serious. You start seeing more FOTMs and the format becomes dominated by a small set of guilds who care. It becomes just another slum, like HA, with no place for people who don't dedicate themselves to the format.

Quote:

Originally Posted by luilui

Anet can just make 2 types of alliance battles one for unorganised, one for organised. Then we can keep the causal players happy as well as the serious players. There is no reason (and not fair??) to give one up for the other.

That's what you're missing. The serious players don't care, we'd rather be GvGing against other competitive guilds if we wanted a good, hard match. If both options were presented, organized 12v12 would be a wasteland compared to the sheer number of games being played in the semi-random environment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Alliances are not cordinated at all. You can have up to 1000 players in 1 alliance. From those players that are doing 12v12 at one time will be entered into the match with you. Its still going to be random but you are not going to have a prime pick if there are a couple 100 people in your alliance.

That's only true of the zerg alliances that are trying to hold cities. The competitive alliances are going to be significantly smaller. As far as alliance battles, if the teams are all organized, the number of people trying to enter at the same time from a competitive alliance is going to be exactly 12.

Peace,
-CxE

twicky_kid · Mar 29, 2006, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

That's only true of the zerg alliances that are trying to hold cities. The competitive alliances are going to be significantly smaller. As far as alliance battles, if the teams are all organized, the number of people trying to enter at the same time from a competitive alliance is going to be exactly 12.

Its all about the zerg. Even if you win every match you play with every top teir guild. That is nothing compared to the mass amount of other instances of 12v12 at one time.

Its all about what side wins more faction to push the boarders to take over a town. You don't just need 1 win every 30-40 minutes you need 100s at a time. Basicly which ever side has more of a population will be taking more towns.

Linkusmax · Mar 29, 2006, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Its all about what side wins more faction to push the boarders to take over a town. You don't just need 1 win every 30-40 minutes you need 100s at a time. Basicly which ever side has more of a population will be taking more towns."

Not true, larger polpulation will have absolutly NO effect because you have to play the other side to effect the boarders, so in effect skill will always matter. Because no matter how many people you have waiting to play they can't play the other faction to help theres unless theres someone to play.

twicky_kid · Mar 29, 2006, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linkusmax

Not true, larger polpulation will have absolutly NO effect because you have to play the other side to effect the boarders, so in effect skill will always matter. Because no matter how many people you have waiting to play they can't play the other faction to help theres unless theres someone to play.

You can switch sides any time. Population will influx.